doesn't get much better than that on "way too early." we'll strive for great show, everyone. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ >> good morning, everyone. it's monday, april 8th. welcome to "morning joe." live look at times square as we start off this week. with us on the set is former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst and definitely not a stylist, steve rattner. he can dress himself but his advice for others, i should have called maureen. >> you should have. >> what was i thinking? >> i don't know. she asked the same question. >> you know what? she is right and why she is so brilliant. president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass author of "foreign policy begins at home." congratulations.

>> how was your weekend? why is rattner wrong? >> i went to a basketball game, my first one. >> she can now do sports. >> there was an incredible shots two-thirds of the way down and we have to show that. >> jason kidd? >> no. okay. >> i know what you're saying. >> do you? >> it was jason kidd. >> and he is like 40 or something. >> how did this come about? >> never mind. this is not good. i'm just going to get killed here. >> i'm just curious. your first baseball game you were sitting in the owner's box at fenway. >> that was wonderful! >> were you up in the stands with the kids from the bronx? >> not exactly. >> no. it was like where people are. you know, around the game? around the game at the bottom! >> around the court? >> you mean you were courtside? >> well. >> what stars did you see courtside? >> michael j. fox.

it was fun. >> he seems like a really nice guy. >> i asked rattner what i should way as we were guests of the rogers and he told me to wear jeans. >> jeans? >> he was wrong. >> i've been to quite a few basketball games. i got my popcorn and program on my left and i got my huge fizzing diet coke. when i dropped some popcorn to my left and i pick it up and you know what is down there? cement. i pick up the cement and i eat it because there is the five second rule in the basketball game. when mika puts down her louis vuitton purse, it's hardwood and carmelo anthony says, excuse me, ma'am. >> he is very nice. >> he is very nice. just don't do that. don't do that! it's a spicy tuna roll and not popcorn?

>> it was really fun! >> he is really nice! >> he is. >> come on. >> i can tell. >> she thinks it's great the fans get to meet the players. >> they do and when they walk through, they shake every hand. that's cool. i like that. all right. it was fun. >> anybody else have a weekend like that? >> i've never been to a basketball game. >> i was here in new york, i hear it was glorious this week and about as good as it gets and played some golf on saturday. >> did you really? >> it was gorgeous this weekend. >> rattner, you going share? >> i was north of new york city where it was also glorious this weekend. >> jealous! >> we don't want to get too specific. >> no, we don't. >> i was north of -- i'm glad you asked. i was in playing golf. >> how cool? >> amazing. great weekend. >> were the fish happy?

>> the fish were happy and then hungry. let's get to the news. president obama will be in connecticut this afternoon to continue his push for new gun legislation and joining the president today will be the family members of those killed in the newtown massacre. in an emotional interview last night on "60 minutes," some of the parents and spouses spoke about the morning that changed their lives forever. >> i ran to the firehouse and frantically was looking around. all of the kids in the class were on the floor and isaiah popped up and i grabbed him and held him and he was crying. daddy, so many gunshots. i saw this and i saw that. i took my son in my arms. he is obeyibig kid.

i was running from room-to-room trying to locate others in the class. >> i got a text from jimmy. i have isaiah, but i don't have ania. i kept texting 10, 15 seconds, ana. question mark? then exclamation point. we had isaiah. i didn't understand why we didn't have ana. >> you can have a million bullets but if you have to put them in one at a time, the ability to do any kind of real damage is significantly reduced. >> we looked to the search warrants as well and know that he left the smaller capacity magazines at home, that was a choice the shooter made. he knew that the larger capacity magazine clips were more lethal. >> the more bullets you can get out of the end of that gun in the least amount of time, that is the single area that i believe affects legality and the

size of the magazine placed in that weapon is a direct contributor to that factor. i would like every parent in this country, that is 150 million people, i would like them to look in the mirror -- and that is not a figure of speech, scott, i mean, literally find a mirror in your house and look in it and look in your eyes and say, this will never happen to me. this will never happen in my school. this will never happen in my community and see if you actually believe that and if there is a shadow, the slightest shadow of doubt what you said, think about what you can do to change that. it's going to happen to again. it is going to happen again. and every time, you know, it's somebody else's school. it's somebody else's town. it's somebody else's community until, one day, you wake up and it's not. >> back in washington, congress is set to take up gun reform this week. it's an issue met with a threat

of a filibuster from a number of senate republicans. senator john mccain is not among them. >> what is your thought on a filibuster on this? would you be against that? >> i don't understand it. the purpose of the united states senate is to debate and to vote and to let the people know where we stand. >> so you'd encourage republicans not a filibuster? >> i would not only encourage it, i don't understand it. what are we afraid it? >> this thursday morning, joe will host a round table on gun violence with vice president joe biden and we will be joined by people who have differing views on this debate on gun safety. that will be fascinating. >> a great interview yesterday in front of the weekend review or whatever they call it now. >> sunday review. >> we still call it the brooklyn dodgers too. so it's week in review. i tell you what, richard haass, i saw john mccain there. and i'm hopeful.

because, you know, there are a lot of guys out there in the senate and they are going out because it's a free shot. this is free. i'm going to filibuster gun control and you automatically win unconditional support from a segment of your voting population. it doesn't cost anything. it's not like making a tough choice on medicare or medicaid. it costs you nothing. but it does cost the republican party, overall. and i think john mccain understand that. we got an issue that is a 29-7 issue and i can't believe that republicans, first of all, aren't going to support it but, secondly won't let background checks against rapists, people who have committed manslaughter in the past, people with mental illness, dangerous mental illness, i can't believe those republicans are going to allow the entire republican party to

be the party that basically put rapists rights over parents rights to keep their kids safe when they go to school. >> i hope you're right. you had to like what john mccain said. all you can say is whatever happens this time, and it's going to be less than, i think, the people around this table hope happens this time. even if you got background checks my hunch is a lot of people want more than that. the only thing i'm hoping is the debate is not the end of it but the beginning of it. over time, these issues evolve, they ripen and maybe this year you get this amount. what i'm hoping is rather than this being the peak because it's the reaction what happened to newtown and the rest this is the beginning of the change and public attitudes. we have seen with other issues the last couple of years whether it's gay marriage or immigration. >> it certainly has moved on the assault weapons. 60/40 now. >> i'm hoping seeing it less, if you will, as an event and more as a process.

what i'm hoping that this is the beginning of a changed political -- so maybe this time around, lots of republicans filibuster but the next time around, they don't because they realize the political price they pay is what i'm hoping for. >> i'm concerned, willie geist, for my republican party, if they do filibuster not like we reached the end of history. newtown is not the end of history. think of the killings and shootings since newtown. there hasn't been a mass killing yet but there will be. why do we know that? look in the recent past, kids shot up in an oregon mall. teenagers shot and killed while they are watching a movie in aurora, colorado. a grandmother shot while worshipping god up in minnesota. and then, of course, these first graders dismembered by all of the bullets that were shot at them in rapid succession. republicans, maybe they believe this is the end of history, but it's going to happen again and

when it happens again and 92% of americans have asked them to do something and they don't do it, it's just going to have devastating political impact on everybody. so those four or five grandstanding right now say they will filibuster a bill they don't even know and haven't even read, it might be great for them with a small segment of their base in their state. it's pretty rough for the republican party. >> go to the front page of the "chicago tribune's" website this morning the top headline 14-year-old boy shot to death on west side. it goes to your point. it's going to continue to happen and it's going to continue to happen. how do we react to it and how do you solve this problem? i mean, if you look at numbers, the polls we have seen, 90/10 on background checks and you said assault weapons moving in that direction, why isn't the congress of the united states reflective of the american public? i think the point you're making and at some point that catches up to politicians. when you're not answering to what the public wants, you'll

pay for that down the road. >> there is rarely, steve rattner, opposing these pieces of legislation. they will say if you want a background check to make sure rapists can't just go if and buy a gun and people have committed manslaughter in the past are violent offenders. if you want to protect your family from a background check they say the background check is only national registrations. it won't. that's illegal and against the law. assault weapons, they say, next they come after my handguns. nope. that is not true either. there is always one excuse after another after another and the excuses are bad. but you look at chicago. those are handguns. we are not going to get the handguns out of people's hands. they have a constitutionally protected right to have those handguns but mayor bloomberg said to me six weeks ago, even before it looked like we weren't going to get an assault weapons

ban, he said, you know, assault weapons ban, fine. we can get that. it's symbolic, it had to do with -- i get it. he said, but what connects more killings than anything else is the background checks. in chicago, across america. we have got to stop one gang member from giving a handgun to another gang member and giving it to another gang member and then somebody else shooting them. that is how it happens. you get gun trafficking and a universal background check against criminals and mentally ill people, you know, he believes you take care a lot of shootings from chicago out to l.a. >> sure. look. first of all, notwithstanding what some of these republicans are saying now, it's really hard for me to imagine that after newtown with all of the emotion that this bill is going down on a filibuster and it seems to me at the end of it all no republican wants to be responsible for this bill falling over a filibuster. number two, the background check

issue, at the moment, seems to be an issue which i actually have some sympathy for the concern about which is one farmer wants to sell to another farmer and the father to the son, all of these kinds of specific cases of how does this actually work. so now you have joe manchin and pat toomey off and colburn moving back from it and manchin and toomey trying to get a deal down. i get progression is what is happening on gay rights and on other issues. i think the history of gun control is kind of opposite in way we pass assault weapons ban and repealed it and tried in '68 to get a robust piece of gun legislation after rfk and martin luther king was killed and maybe a watered down version. maybe you're right and i hope you are but think this is our moment and a time we need to get everything we can get. >> i agree with richard. i think history is moving in one direction on this issue. i think 33% of americans have a gun in their home versus 50% not so long ago.

that number is going to keep going down. and i do think history is on the side of those that want some reasonable rational gun safety laws passed. again, 92% of americans want background checks for, you know, to make sure that rapists and child molesters, people that have committed battery don't get their hands on gun. >> it's going to take some strong voices on the side of assault weapon control. >> what kind of leadership -- first of all, people have been criticizing the president. do you think the president is showing sufficient leadership? look. i think the argument now is whether he went for too much. or if it was too narrow ultimately and what could actually happen in washington because there's so many reasons why things don't get through. but if you look locally, this is a narrative now, we have seen other issues as well, where governors are able to get more done. governor malloy of connecticut. >> north of the city. >> yeah.

listen. >> it's north of the city. >> they just passed really strict gun laws and he took on the head of the nra without mincing words. >> it reminds me of the clowns at the circus. they get the most attention and what he is paid to do. but the reality is that the gun that was used to kill 26 people on december 14th was legally purchased in the state of connecticut even though we had an assault weapons ban but there were loopholes in it that you could drive a truck through. i mean, this guy is so out of whack, it's unbelievable. i can't get on a plane, as the governor of the state of connecticut, without somebody running a background check on me. why should you be able to buy a gun or buy, you know, armor piercing munitions? it doesn't make any sense. >> building was the guy who had to be in the room to tell it the family members of 26 people, that hair loved ones and babies will not be coming home and they

are the ones that got killed that morning. i don't know if other governors and other politicians who represent different areas of the country have to go through that to understand exactly what we are talking about here. i just don't even get the argument. in joe's piece yesterday kind of crystallized this circular conversation you can have with gun rights folks, that it's just endless and it boils down to wayne lapierre's arguments which just fly in the face of the reality that we face in this country. >> i thought joe nosierra's piece yesterday, i tell you what i think is missing in this segment of legislating. i actually agreed with the gun guy the overwhelming amount of time. but i think he is like me. he's a gun guy when it comes to second amendment rights and believes the federal government wants to chip away at those

rights and liberals don't want you to have handguns or shotguns. they will let you have one hunting rifle and one bullet you have to lock up. that's basically his view. i think he makes a great view that we have to start demanding more responsibility of gun guys as he kept calling it but i think he, like myself, is saying let's have background checks so people who have committed violent crimes in the past can't walk into a store and get a gun and go home and cull their estranged wife and five kids. let's make sure he hasn't had domestic abuse. >> let's at least try. >> let's make sure this guy hasn't been arrested and sent to jail and out oral on parole for violenting raping a woman and he has a handgun. let's give ourselves a chance to keep our children in school and our teenagers when they go off to college or even go to the mall or go to a movie safe.

there are a lot of gun guys, a lot of guys like me that -- i say it again. i think i should have a right to carry a concealed weapon in new york city. i don't. but i think i should. even though nobody is violating my constitutional right, but it seems to me i should have that right if i pass gun safety law, classes and everything else. but there's some of us that, again, are with the gun guys 95% of the time. in fact, a lot of gun guys are that way. it's just these extreme gun positions. i say not only for safety reasons because i know it will hurt the republican party in the long run. that's the question. >> it's hard to think of another 90/10 issue where the congress and government have come around to do the right thing. >> it's inevitable. i was thinking about doing a

package for this vice president, this talk we are going to have with the vice president. >> round table we are going to have. >> and i'm going to try to find issues that only hit 7% because i know 13% of americans think barack obama is anti-christ. i know that when bush was president, 37% of americans believe that he intentionally blew unfortunate building 7. but 7%, hugo chavez had higher approval ratings, willie, in america. more people have a higher opinion of hugo chavez's leadership as the late leader of venezuela than they do think that we should not have background checks against rapists, against people that commit manslaughter, against mentally ill people. >> wayne lapierre's position gets a lot of attention in the press and his voice is heard loudly in the press but on that

issue of universal background checks he doesn't hold the minority position but a fringe position. below 10%. >> and his own organization. >> within his own organization among gun owners it's still a spring position so something to consider when you hear that position advance over and over. >> so let's drain this bit of emotion and steve rattner, let's look at this as a business proposition. wayne lapierre, he is not irrational and he is not crazy. he's a business person. he makes a lot of money off of guns. and he represents people that sell guns and they make a lot of money off of guns. now, i'm not questioning wayne lapierre's motives. i believe that he is a fervent believer in the second amendment and a fervent believer of background checks a decade ago after columbine but at the end of the day this is about money. i believe the guys, the

companies that are making so much money on guns, that have made millions and millions of dollars off the deaths of these 20 little children in newtown and the panic caused by a lot of what wayne lapierre said, they are are irrational at the end of the day. they are left wing and in the end it's all about money in hollywood. haven't they already figured out we got to give one here? we have got to give on the background checks? i'm just saying rationally as a business person, a lot of hedge funders have bought these gun companies. do rational business disis, okay, 92% of americans are against this w we need to -- are against our position. we need to give them this position before the next bad thing happens or next time they are going to go after our assault weapons? >> sure. i would imagine any business man involved in this industry would take the rational position we

ought to give them this because we want to save our business and we want to be on the right side of it but as you see in foreign policy in a lot of places leaders don't do the rational thing when it's in their economic interest and other factors take over, emotion. the 7% in any issue that is 93/7 can often be more vocal, more passionate, more powerful in some ways than the 93% and i think that is what wayne lapierre is dealing with as well as his own views and his own personality. >> do you know how many guys that run hedge funds that would make this decision? >> no. but look. guys who run hedge funds are the most commercial, the most focused, the most sort of data driven what is in their interest kind of guys. hedge fund guys are not emotional. >> i think at the end of the day, mika, i think that that is why i believe we will have a deal on this because wayne lapierre doesn't speak for second amendment rights gun owners. he speaks for the people that make millions off of guns and they know it's in their best interests to give on this issue.

>> i just hope that the republicans -- i hope those that are really, really tough on this and still opposing gun legislation have the -- have what it takes to do what is right. coming up on "morning joe," democratic senator from new york kirsten gillibrand will be with us and lawrence o'donnell and cass sunstein and tina brown. >> we have a lot of republicans in that lineup so we can ask them. >> it's a happy spring forecast today. d.c. could be up there near 75 to do. i mean, it's going to be the warmest day by far up and down the east coast. all the way up into areas of new york city who could hit 70 for the first time this year. the east is warm and quiet today. all of the problems the next three or four days in the midwest. a little rain heading to chicago for your morning commute and a

raining in minneapolis and duluth and snow north of duluth if you can believe that. the forecast today, three days in a row with severe storms and typical of the springtime but haven't had much yet. with we are going to get tornadoes a few in rural areas of western kansas along the colorado border and strong storms possible for southern kansas. if we see a minioutbreak it will be tuesday night so pay attention. make sure you keep us in the back of your mind. kansas city all the way down to oklahoma city, tulsa, ft. smith, dallas area to austin. now behind the storm, i have gotten people from montana and wyoming. it is ugly asnowind it is snowi. 1 to 2 feet. how bad is that? temperatures today in new york city and washington, d.c. by far

the weather we have been waiting for. very warm. leave the jacket at home. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ ♪ ♪ i don't want any trouble. i don't want any trouble either. ♪ [ engine turns over ] you know you forgot to take your mask off, right? [ siren wailing in distance ] ♪ [ male announcer ] introducing the all-new beetle convertible. now every day is a top-down day. that's the power of german engineering.

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♪ 28 past of the hour. time to take a look at -- >> if you have a trampoline can you jump. >> mika wants to know why bears jump on trampolines and dunk the ball. bears aren't allowed to play in the nba. >> got it. i like that part. all right. are we ready for papers, gentlemen? >> i was born ready, mika. >> this is fun. >> let's talk about the dancing bears. >> no. this is actually from "the new york times." >> she goes to her first basketball game, right? tell me. we have all slept at basketball

games for years. she goes to hess first and hardwood underneath her and you ask howcarmelo? she goes, he is a very nice man. >> he is so sweet. >> it's like whether -- like we were at fenway. i've been going to the ballparks 45 years. all of this stuff in there. all of this food in there. mika goes after the game, i like baseball. it's okay. not bad. >> this was lovely. >> they almost let her pinch-hit. >> i know. >> it was amazing. really cool. and madison square garden is great! i had never really seen it that way. >> this is so good! this is so good for your brand. >> i know. all right. let's stop. from "the new york times" fashion designer and socialite lily pulitzer passed away and

known for colorful full prints, her career took off when jacqueline kennedy was seen wearing one of her dresses. my mother went to school with her. love her. beautiful clonels. >> it all took off from there. >> i know so much, joe. you're full of information. >> i'm not going to lie. i'm a huge lily fan. >> so many designers have been inspired by her but you know a lily when you see it. >> yes, you do. >> i know i'm -- i know i'm driving through a town and my pickup truck, willie, because i'm carrying the vegetables. i go because these rich people like fresh, table to market to table stuff, right? >> right. >> i pick it and a leave a little dirt on there. i drive my pickup truck in the northeast in the summer and i know i'm in a town where ratner or mika would be when i see one

of these lily. >> it's north of the city, joe. >> it's north of the city. it's fresh. this is like, what is it? market to table. >> okay. >> mark it up. mark it up. 3x. >> i do 10x. you guys are so rich and it makes you feel good. i rub a little dirt on my face so they feel sorry for me. >> makes the point she spilled orange juice and made a billion dollars off of these people. >> these people here. these people. i'm struggling for a couple of extra dollars on a weekend in the summer. these people! >> this is backwards but can you tell what is in politico, willie? >> i spill orange juice on my dress, i'm going to make a billion dollars. >> suckers! >> joining us for the politico playbook, mr. jim vandehei. how are you? >> good. you?

>> good. senator chuck schumer could see an immigration plan as early as this week but the bipartisan plan has a long way to go. where are we? >> three issues the president focus on the next year coming into full light. the gun debate which you just talked about. you have his budget coming out wednesday and dinner with senate republicans at night. by the end of the week get the immigration bill that includes rubio and schumer. if that group can keep together, if they can put this bill out there a decent chance something can get through the senate and possibly signed into law this year. >> can i interrupt you a second so you can leak a story from somebody that said something bad about me? the head of politico here, this is what willie -- this headline captured me because if it is truth and i believe it maybe the truth, the white house has to be wringing their hands right now.

hill holds obama legacy in its hands and it does. if they say no to immigration reform and to gun safety, if they say no to a grand budget deal, it shuts down. and his legacy he is passed obama care in his second year, and may be stop this from having a depression and that is it. >> right. one day it's the coolest job in the world. on the other hand, you have to deal with the congress that doesn't want to give him any of that. not going to be much done on guns. at most a watered down universal background check that won't actually be universal. there is probably not going to be any kind of grand bargain on the budget so immigration gives him his best chance because both parties have a strong incentive to get it done. republicans need it to get beyond their problems with hispanics and obama wants it because he thinks it's the right policy and needs it for his legacy. so there is a lot of momentum to getting it done. there are even folks in the house talking about being open for a deal that looks something like the one being talked about by the gang of eight.

so of all the issues we have talked about that are big and complex over the last couple of years immigration by far the best chance of getting signed into law but not easy. a lot of conservatives don't like the pathway to citizenship and big disagreements between unions and business leaders about how you deal with the temporary workers program but most of that stuff has been litigated through gang of eight and from other groups that are having input into the gang of eight so a reasonable chance something does get done. >> a lot of republicans concerned about the costs of whatever happens here as well. jim vandehei with a look at the playbook, thanks so much. >> take care. see you. >> isn't that something. talk a minute -- no, we have to go to break. politico really boils it down. president obama's legacy as 44th president of the united states of america depends on the congress and it's got to be really frustrated for a man who doesn't like to deal with the congress. >> you have a chance to react to event. who knows what happened in the

world and with the economy. in terms what he can initiate, you're right but still the inbox and we don't know what the inbox is going to be like. >> his second term if you don't get those three issues what is the second term after all? >> yeah. coming up, condoleezza rice showing off her green jacket for the first time. we get a first look at her at this week's masters turned playing a round at augusta with phil mickelson. >> no way. >> lewe will tell you what left thought of her game coming up. ♪ changing the world is exhausting business. with the innovating and the transforming and the revolutionizing. it's enough to make you forget that you're flying five hundred miles an hour on a chair that just became a bed. you see, we're doing some changing of our own. ah, we can talk about it later. we're putting the wonder back into air travel, one innovation at a time. the new american is arriving.

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welcome back to "morning joe." time for a little sports at 6:40 this morning. tonight is the night. louisville against michigan at the georgia dome in atlanta for the ncaa championship. with wane, rick pitino would become the first men's basketball coach to win titles at two different schools. he did it with kentucky in 196 and michigan last won a title in 1989 behind glenn rice. almost a quarter of a century ago. should be a great game after a couple of good ones on saturday. louisville has more than just the men's team to root for. last night, its women's team beat cal 64-57 in the final four. louisville's women's team also playing for the national title.

that will be tomorrow night. they get uconn for the championship and uconn beat notre dame yesterday. >> ever happen before? >> a good question. have to look it up but not in recent memory. actually, the two uconn teams have been pretty good. knicks on fire last night looking for their 12 consecutive win. taking on the thunder in oklahoma city. second quarter, carmelo anthony a very nice guy mika tells us. 36 points for him. knicks took a nine-point lead into the halftime. fourth quarter, thunder making a comeback. russell west brook with the basket. raymond felton slips and knocks it out to j.r. smith, off balance three to seal the win. >> another nice guy. >> a gentleman. knicks win their 12th game in a row 125-120. you win on the road against oklahoma city is a great win. the red sox and the jays.

reigning n.l. cy young award r.a. dickey in toronto now. will middlebrooks goes opposite field. in the fifth he again off dickey, a solo shot to left center. dicky leaves 4 2/3 and gave up eight runs. two innings later. come on! middlebrooks again! his third home run of the game. the red sox win 13-0. break out boston. 4-2. >> yanks 2-4. >> but a win yesterday in detroit. this week is the masters. today begins the masters week. while much of the focus on tiger woods, his quest for another green jacket, his first since 2005. over the weekend, it was augusta's national member former secretary of state condoleezza rice there she is wearing her green jacket at augusta yesterday and meeting with fellow members. she played around with phil

mickelson. according to lefty, she was, quote, sinking a 40-foot putt with eight feet of break on the final hole. last august, rice was one of two women to break the gender of the masters coming on the course. rory mcilroy had a great run yesterday. >> is your money on tiger? >> you're betting against the field. it's a terrible bet in golf but if you had to pick a favorite, it would be him. >> i asked willie before the break, what are all of the kids looking at? right? because you know what i'm on. i'm always on fred astaire.com. i love the dance move. so i'm -- here is this amazing story. a fox reporter could be jailed for protecting her sources and nobody seems to care. have you heard this story? >> i read a little of it over

the weekend. >> jana winter refuses to reveal information about the aurora, colorado shooting. if she had done this for "the new york times" and a judge forcing her to reveal her source we would all be talking about her but nobody is now. buzz feed is saying that's -- i think -- let's put it in the mainstream media right now. go to buzz feed and receiad abo this. jana winter did her job and information on the aurora center and got her notebook out and got the information out and now a judge is trying to send her to jail in colorado. >> get that story out there. >> you're right again. >> buzz feed is a pretty good site. 2004 both uconn teams. i thought it was uconn. >> sometimes i like going on netscape. >> that's a name i have not heard in a long typically.

>> i got 1440. you plug a phone into the wall. >> you dial it up and it makes a noise. >> pictures come down so slow. >> when you hear that modum dialing, you know it's working! >> it's so exciting! i hear it and then i go get a cup of coffee, right? and i let the -- then i go back and -- i actually have never made a cup of coffee in my life. >> the drama. >> the drama. it's a slow reveal. >> it really is. >> sometimes it's worth the wait. coming up next on "morning joe," steve ratner is getting his notes ready to explain what is wrong with that jobs report that came out on friday. [ male announcer ] i've seen incredible things.

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>> you should wake up. we have only four minutes for this segment because somebody spoke a little too long at the top of the show. >> sorry about that. >> so instead of doing -- >> basketball! >> instead of doing the must read opinion pages we will do steve's charts which we did not get it at the top of the show and you're staying because we have to talk about afghanistan. friday's labor report added 44,000 new jobs added to the work force. the unemployment ticked down to 7.6%. largely because many people simply gave up looking for work. so, steve, you have some charts on what is behind these numbers. is there anything hopeful behind these numbers? >> not a lot. this was a bad jobs report. the best you can say these numbers did revised up periodically and they were revised up for january and february. we don't know really what caused this number. people talk about sequester and

probably not. let's look at who factors that really i think do drive what is going on in the jobs market. the first thing we should look at is wages. what is happening to wages in this recovery is we have talked about before, but show you some pretty striking graphics. after significant wage increases in the early part of the economic recession really no growth in wages since january of 2010. you have essentially got a picture, if consumers don't have money they can't spend it. what caused the weak makes harder for people to get wage increases and we are living in a globally world. enormous pressure on wages and people have to cut their wages to keep their jobs. the second factor we should talk about here is the budget deficit. what is happening to the budget deficit it's actually been

coming down. revenues going up. up 12% -- this chart is for the first six months of the year. revenues up 12%. higher tax brackets as people move up through inflation. spending was actually down in total real dollars during this period. a lot of the war wind down and st stimulus coming off and the budget deficit went down from 799 billion to 600 billion. for the good part of that, it also does reduce economic activity. >> only 600 billion dollar deficit. you know, i've got great news. i don't know if you knew this. >> steve, i think he is mocking. >> i know he is. i can tell. >> i go to the doctor last year and i have high cholesterol. >> i guess we are not going to get to the third chart. >> hold on. can i just explain? this is important. my cholesterol level last year

was really high but gone down 25% the last year. >> did you it with diet, right? >> it's 300 now and 400 last year. aren't you proud of me. >> joe, i'm still on your team on the budget deficit. you know i am. >> on your liberal blogging friends going you know the deficit is going down. yeah, it was over a trillion four years! kind of hard not to go down! my cholesterol is 400. if it goes down 25%, i'm not going to be like running any marathons. >> i'm not going to debate that but let's look at the last thing we saw on this jobs report which is labor force participation. >> i know this is going to be good news. >> yes. >> down to 63%. the lowest since 1979. >> that is when jimmy carter was in the white house. >> what you have here is somewhat younger people dropping out of the labor force for the first time under 25-year-olds dropping out of the labor force and people between 45 and 49 in

their prime dropping out of the labor force and baby boomers are starting to retire which is a demographic -- >> we got to go. this number is horrible, richard haass. just speaks terrible about how depressed people are. >> people focus on the unemployment numbers. this is the number to focus on. the employment numbers and whether it's young people dropping out or long-term unemployed and people giving up looking this is the serious number. >> define economically what labor force participation is and put the chart back up. steve? >> it's the percent of americans who are out there looking for a job and so when people drop out of the labor force, that number comes down. it makes the unemployment number look better. unemployment number came down last month by a tenth of a percent but more and more people not working. what is worse once they drop out of the labor force, they often don't come back. >> that is structural.

>> if that continues dropping, we have a serious generational problem. >> not just economic problem. it becomes a social problem. >> it's a social problem. >> young people who can't get jobs. >> wow. >> all right. >> so rough out there. >> steve, thank you. >> thank you, steve. still ahead, hillary clinton makes her second major speech since leaving her post as secretary of state. this time at the woman of the world conference and talk to the host of that event, tina brown, straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪

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sheila kelly has long had a fiery reputation among her peers but this week outside the lines obtained practice video showing exactly how far she has gone to motivate her players. cursing at them. throwing basketballs at them. shooting t-shirt guns. throwing bricks at them. threatening them with a baseball bat. while they were on roller skates. even forcing her players to serve her meals. we sat down with onetime

assistant coach kenny watkis th who claim the tapes doesn't show the worst of it. >> she said the nastiest things i've ever heard and i record the defendant all. you come back later today and i'll play you the tapes. >> when we came back the next day, kenny watkins had changed his tune. >> i'm just joking. coach kelly is the best. >> is everything all right? >> that was so funny. welcome to "morning joe." richard haass is still bus. joining the table, the editor in chief of "newsweek" magazine and the daily beast, tina brown. also with us is visiting professor at nyu former democratic democratman, harold ford jr. fresh off the women the world conference and talk about, incredible. >> hillary was just vibrant and

amazing. >> did she say she is going to do in 2016? >> she did but it was like a pep talk. hillary was in flying form, she really was. >> woodstock for women, except they showered before they went there. which is a good thing. >> okay. let's get to the news. >> not that i can account for each one of them. >> i was there. we have established that. >> i don't believe you were at woodstock in '69. >> it was the summer between high school and college. some of us were there. >> very good. little acid on your senior trip? really? not a lot of good news. a top u.s. general acknowledges the fight against the taliban is long from over saying the insurgency will remain a threat in some parts of afghanistan well after the u.s. wraps up combat operations. those remarks come just hours after the taliban claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing in southern afghanistan that killed five americans,

including 25-year-old diplomat anne smedinghoff. she was killed by delivering textbooks to a local school. she is the first to die since the u.s. consulate in benefit ghazi. at least ten children in afghanistan and five women killed in an attack which targeted a high profile taliban commander. richard haass, before we move on to north korea, it seems hopeless when you hear stories like this. >> here we are ten years in. ten years in. american diplomats are getting killed. according to news reports, we are doing things that are going to set us back for decades. >> another prerequisite is in place. the whole idea we would build up and build down and afghans

sustain on their own with very little help from us. two things clear. afghans are not in a position to sustain things and second of all the united states and other outsiders provide economic and diplomat help. you realize how vulnerable they are. >> and americans got killed this weekend. >> several soldiers got killed and all of that suicide bombing and so forth. you realize after a decade that afghanistan still -- the pieces aren't in place and, quite honestly, is not going to be. >> if this chaos continues, do we wind down? >> sure. >> you think the president is going to hold steady and not going to back off the 2014 date? >> i think it probably will be

adjusted. >> women in the world, we had a very interesting afghan contingent. we have young woman member of parliament and the head of the biggest entertainment network. they feel that huge strides have been made in afghanistan and that we should not only look at the negative of what is happening in afghanistan. that, for instance, ten years ago, only 900 kids in schools and now wi8 million women in ki and they are not being deterred sending their kids to school despite the danger. >> what happens when we leave? >> that is the big question. what they are saying the afghans themselves we must not confuse the crazy comments of karzai what americans peel about the taliban. they hate the taliban and they are pushing them out. >> why is karzai still president of a country that most people hate? that is a great question ma

perhaps richard could answer more. >> he has to finish up his terms. those in the south where the pashtuns are and taliban have most of their base it will get rougher there sooner. karzai will hopefully see out his term. the question is can you have a transition and a government that governs. >> which does that transition take place? >> i think 2015. >> will we see the same problems in iraq not as much sectarian division there. >> you have pashtuns and it's more geographic so the south will be where the taliban make most of the inroads. the north will be pretty stable. great kabul which is the most patch work quilt can you have stability there? i think you will for a while. the question is the long term. >> another sign of just how uncertain things are on the korean peninsula. another nuclear test was warned by the north only to back off

those claims a short time later. still, a potential missile test from the north could come at any time. last week, north korean leads told british and russian embassies they could not guarantee their safety. a missile launch could be eminent. china appeared to distance itself from pyongyang saying no one should be allowed to throw the whole world into kayas for selfish gains said the krern leader. senator john mccain says the threat of an accidental war is serious and that china holds the cards in dealing with kim jong-un. >> we have seen the circle over and over again the last 20 or 30 years. they confront. crisis. we offer them incentives food, money and in the meanwhile the most oppressive regiment on

earth continues to function. china holds the key to this problem. china could cut off their economy if they want to. >> this all comes down to china and the chinese have wanted an unstable kror rean peninsula for some testimony. they don't want it unified as we have said on this show. what point does china realize there is in that interest to bring some stability to that region. they have to know, japan, south korea, taiwan, do they want us to start helping taiwan develop a nuclear weapon? >> two pieces of good news there. one the change in chinese attitud attitudes. they see north korea more as a burden than a buffer and a good sign. the question is where they take it. second of all the talk about missile tests, it's possible that kim jong-un will launch a missile and declare victory and then this crisis will begin to wind down. yeah, a chance of accidental war. i do not think there's a chance

of intentional conflict. i think today is the first bit of good news we have seen in a while. >> why can't the president pick up the phone and say, listen, guys, we have been sitting back and letting you guys protect a mad man for 30 years. and now he is threatening our west coast with nuclear weapons and you can keep doing it but we are going to give you time too. in three years, we have a three-year plan. at the end of three years, if we are still being harassed by this crazy 29-year-old freak, we're going to go to taiwan and we are going to help them develop a nuclear missile and there is nothing you're going to do to stop us so you make the decision today. we give you three years. we want to be your friends but we are not going to continue to have a target drawn on our back because you're allowing it to be drawn on our back. >> i would imagine something along those lines may be happening in terms of china younger for economic stability, regional stability. i imagine what richard is saying some of that is bourn and some of their change response may be

bourn out born out of that. richard, assume we get out of this mess and assume not a nuclear test on their part or any other provocation. what does he win out of this? there has been speculation that kim jong-un has to prove his meddle, his toughness in front of north korean generals. has he accomplished that? if not, where does he stand politically after this ordeal? the right question. the problem is he has gone on a limb and can you come back and declare victory and see his position strengthen rather than weaken? we don't know what he calculates will be what he needs to accomplish and brag about and i'm hoping something as, quote/unquote, as a missile test is enough for him to say i got what i need and walk it back. i don't think we need to make the call you mentioned when you talked to harold about. i think the chinese figured that out for themselves. it's clear. >> the chinese just may be so much aware this is this young

very cutoff guy trying to feel his oats and show the internal politics he has mastered the game and perhaps they have a better insight into his psychology than we do. >> they looked at south korea and japan and the region. saying if we don't get this guy under control, not only does he cause a conflict but the remill takization and nuclearization for the region. >> i talked about taiwan the bigger threat for them is the second largest economy in of the world, japan decides we are getting into the nuclear business. >> two-thirds of south koreans say they want a nuclear weapon. the north koreans are changing the political environment of asia. the tectonic plates are moving there. they know they don't have the luxury of tolerating the antics of north korea. >> the women in the world summit on friday, tina brown introduced hillary clinton and asked the question that is on everybody's mind.

take a look. >> the big question about hillary is what is next? >> this truly is the unfinished business of the 21st century and it is the work we are called to do. i look forward to being your partner in all of the days and years ahead. let's keep fighting for opportunity and dignity. let's keep fighting for freedom and equality. let's keep fighting for full participation and let's keep telling the world over and over again that, yes, women's rights are human rights and human rights are women's rights once and for all! thank you all so much! >> nice. in "the new york times" maureen dowd writes in part it's such a silly question if hillary is running. i've never met a man who is told he could be president who didn't want to be president so naturally a whom is told she

could be the first commander in chief wants to be. the question is not whether but wither. did hillary learn from her healthy to be more transparent and less my way or the highway? did she learn after voting to support nonsense cal invasion of iraq that she doesn't need to be overcompensate to show she's tough? the real question about hillary is this. when people take a new look at her in the coming years, will they say the past or future mrs. clinton or madam president? i think, tina brown, to me, at least i'll be surprised if she he didn't run. sort of the way to look at it. >> she clearly is going to be gearing up for a run. i do think those questions that we just heard are tremendously out of date at this point. it did seem to me like an era at

this point to be talking about white water and health care and dick morris and mark penn and all of these things now seem so long ago. it feels to me as if the american people have tremendously moved on in their reception of hillary clinton. i think when she needs to prove she can run a good campaign and doesn't run as a person who expects to win. one thing you have to say about hillary she makes mistakes but not the same one twice. i don't think you'll see a campaign this time if she does run that is anything like last time. >> you don't see mark penn running the campaign? >> i don't see mark penn in her future. one of the things she talked about actually at the summit was how technology, how twitter, tumbler, facebook have transformed the whole atmosphere in a sense about grassroots politics with regard to women and i think that is also you're going to see that tremendously in her campaign. last time her campaign was not a digitally savvy campaign and that was one of the great pluses, of course, of the obama

campaign, they understood everything about this new world of social media. she will not be making that mistake again and in the state department she used media very aggressively to get the message out. >> the great politicians as tina just outlined learn from their mistakes big or small. and grow from them. i don't think in the scheme of things that one could point on a whole number of huge mistakes has made. has she made them, of course. i think maureen's -- >> if she had a campaign strategy that planned on running after super tuesday. >> true. >> she should have been elected. monumental mistake. >> right. i think your bigger point is that was -- that will be eight years ago now. when you look at what her body of work since then. >> oh, my lord. is there anyone who compares? >> maureen dowd is observe ften

point and this is off point. i think the country will be ready for -- >> i think mrs. clinton, i'm for her, will have to mature the next two or three years as she runs for office. >> you're for me too, though, right? >> yeah. >> and you're for mika and richard? >> and tina as well. >> the year, the brutal year of the campaign of the four years in state department, i mean, what a learning process. >> it's amazing. >> a whole new set of issues i understand about the politics of how things work. >> here is, harold, what maureen dowd wrote mattered yesterday. it matters because hillary's top donors of people that gave her the most money and mika and i have spent some time with them over the past month and talked to them a good bit and in social settin settings. they all love her but they don't know. they will never tell her that

and never tell a reporter that, but they are not sure she's going to get it right this time. they were so sure she was going to be president of the united states and they saw that chaos with bill clinton and bill clinton's people and mark penn and they are asking in 2013, we love her, we want her to make history, but, god, is she going to screw it up again? those questions are still there. and that is what she needs to prove over the next few years. >> i think anything can happen in a campaign, we know that. we must not forget that barack obama was an exceptional candidate. the first black candidate trumped the first woman candidate. i think the organizational piece of it is something she will not get wrong again. this is a woman who is such a student of mistakes about learning and she will. >> fundamentally the issue as much as i think the black may have trumped the woman i'm sure

many debates about that. there will be some big substantive issues here and as joe pointed out, over a period of time, things change. and we have two years here and the question there is a test for mrs. clinton to continue to grow and mature as a public official, as a public thinker and as a candidate which i think she is k. >> i'm a big fan and going back to how she ran her campaign before, mark penn, everybody else said we will win by super tuesday. we don't have to plan and then she loses i think the next 13 states and put her in a position where even when they recovered and she started winning one contest after another in ohio, in texas, in kentucky, and west virginia, in pennsylvania, almost double digits, just rolling. >> texas. >> over obama. texas. that wasn't enough to get her back. it was she lost because of -- >> i think everybody underestimated the power of the obama campaign and their ground

game. >> she also did not, in a sense, allow that base of women in a sense to come out for her in a sense. she almost suppressed this whole that she showed at the summit. >> wait a second. i did underestimate president obama. >> all of you did. >>. can i just be right when i'm right? uns once once in a while. >> tina brown, great to see you. >> thank you. >> congratulations. >> thank you so much. >> richard haass, thanks for staying a little late so we could finally get to the news. >> thank you, richard. >> any time. harold, stay with us. still ahead on "morning joe," senator kirsten gillibrand will join us and new book on the future of government will be cass sunstein. congressman ron kind and jim

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we're on the air? >> i know. we are trying to figure out i think the east side of the state would be best. blue collar thing. the kids over there love me. >> the danger of getting back involved in politics is what we are talking about. >> thank you. here we go. joining us now democratic representative from wisconsin, congressman ron kind and jim himes. both members of the largest moderate group in the house of representatives. >> talk about the coalition. what is your goal? >> i tell you, it's a great coalition. 55-member strong trying to find a way forward. a common ground elusive in washington. bipartisanship shouldn't be a

four letter word. >> why is it so hard? >> the last couple of years too many colleagues coming to washington have this my way or no way at all attitude and not conducive to a democracy. >> the president deliberatery as a matter of strategy tries to put down a position most people if they abide what they have been saying a long time is a reasonable compromise. it gets obliterated by both sides of the aisle. there is money. attention. there is all sorts of things in taking the hard line. not a lot of incentive to operate the way ron is talking about which is more policy centrist approach to things. >> are you different from the mainstream thinking on economic issues? >> the mainstream republicans a group of moderates we are trying to help and work with. the truth is -- >> what about on the democratic side? i'm trying to figure out your moderate compared to, let's say,

nancy pelosi's. >> i'm not even sure i would put her -- as you know she's a leader and operator. a level of pragmatism there. >> right. >> the difference may be this, joe. how do you think about social security and medicare or do you say these are important programs that a lot of people care about and the simple math makes them unsustainable in a 30-year period so we have to make changes and they have to be fair and equitable but we have to think about the nature of the changes. >> the president's challenge to go to cpi you're on board for and how about raising the medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 or something he has toyed with but hasn't yet endorsed? >> we all know the secret in washington is getting costs under control. the way to do that is changing the incentives in the health care system and not volume based

payments. this fee for service system that is bankrupting our nation right now. we're interested in transformative reform not just cost shifting and you talk about raising the eligibility age. that is getting the money around the system and not the heart of the problem. better comes value and not volume and better bang for the buck that we are spending. >> you're not going to solve the whole problem with changing how we deliver health care. at the end of the day you have a system paying out three times as much in benefits to every american from what they are putting in so something else has to happen. >> let me clarify something. steve said he would assume all of us would jump on board cpi. i'm not sure that is true. change cpi might actually reduce the cost of living adjustments for a widow living on $15,000 a year. on the other hand it change the cost of adjustment for something with $5 million a year.

how do we feel about that? that is the decision we want to have rather than taking the uncompromising no way my way or the highway stands on any proposal. >> but on two issues that we have brought up, you've pushed back on raising retirement age and appear to be pushing back on a position the president has taken on changing cpi. >> i think we are changing back on either. raising the retirement age. if you ask me to work an extra year i sit at a desk and probably pull that off. what about a firefighter who carries 60 pounds of year up a ladder? this is the discussion we have to have. if we don't find ways to broaden the discussion we are not getting a deal done. >> some of this stuff is pretty basic, isn't it? >> the numbers don't add up. >> we are not saying i think we are being very clear these programs need to be reformed. >> yeah. >> the question is how do we talk about them? change cpi, no way? or let's unpack it.

do we say as the republicans are saying absolutely not one more dime of revenue or take a look at the tax code. >> what we are doing is sitting in the middle of those conversations going we can't decide how to have it. >> but something that i think there is common ground on is something you've been talking about and trying to convince joe about and we all have a responsibility in the health care system to eat better exercising more and not smoking. unless we change the concept of that we will be playing catch-up with the health care costs. >> let's be healthier and drive down the health care costs. we will not save medicare until we give medical providers less and we have to give beneficiaries yes. yes, i just said it. let's let that ring. beneficiaries are going to have to get less. we are going to have to tax rich people more on their benefits. >> he just said that too. >> he is definitely not running

again. >> you know what? >> he is talking the truth. >> americans know this is the truth. they know it's the truth. listen, i salute you guys for what you're trying to do, trying to find this base but, listen. i'm a hungry guy. let's do this now. just throw -- give me some meat right here. something i can go away with because right now you're sounding kind of flimsy. >> better care and better price. the institute of medicine came out with a report that showed we spent over $750 billion last year in the health care system on stuff that didn't work and it didn't improve patient care and where we should be focused on. >> you come here and you're talking about cutting waste, fraud and abuse. >> no, we are not. it's more than that. >> no, we are not. >> wait. hold on a second. you're saying you're going to he will some of the spectrum, right? inside joke. sorry. >> people bring that up, that is the easy exit for the politician. let's talk -- >> hard decision here. >> tell us some specific things that you would change in order

to deal with this deficit. >> reduce defense spending because with the war and everything else we are $700 billion a year and more any other country on the planet combined and reduce health care spending by changing the model and, yes, you're right, joe, at the end of the day not every american is able to get everything they want out of a system we all pay into. >> do this by we remain the most i o innovative generation in the world. >> steve brought up some democrats are math deniers and the math is pretty simple, isn't it, steve? >> the average american medicare pays in $182 and gets back 287. >> it's a 3-1 ratio. americans are getting older by the day. we are living longer. >> steve, you just saw what the cbo came out with. they are trying to find out if that is the structural reforms

that are taking place right now or remnant of the recession we are coming out of. 400 billion in savings is moving the dial. >> that is great but we have unfunded medicare liabilities of $35 trillion, not billion, trillion dollars. >> the argument we are making there's a lot of fundamental reforms. look. what is the definition of inefficiency? when you spend two times per capita as we do in this country more than any other industrialized country and get worst results and that is interesting math too. that gives us a lot of scope for efficiency. >> we all agree on that but also i think at least this side of the table agrees that you're going to have to go past that and there has to be higher copays and premiums and dedeductibles and all of that stuff has to have. >> i think most of us are all in and we are saying and maybe the democrat part of the new democrats comes in, by all means have the discussion and not hammer the people who can't afford it, the elderly. >> let me tell you what i'm going to do. you guys have convinced me.

i am not going to support publicly, if i ever run for office again, hammering, the elderly. >> hold on. >> promise? >> that was my -- actually, that was my number one. i had said, number one, if you ever run again, hammer the elderly. >> nope. >> that's off. see? we are making progress. now one of you guys say i support the president on changing cpi, i think we -- >> we need as accurate measure and tlifg as we can get. if we can't have an honest conversation in congress about that, we are in trouble. president is going to be proposing that in his budget and he has been there a long time. >> do you spour thaupport that? >> the president is out there proposing it and waiting to see if the republicans bring their idea reforms to the table and they have not silent. they haven't been that constructive. >> if you're protecting the oldest -- not the oldest.

if you're protecting the poorest seniors you'll get democratic support. >> if i can offend my own party for a second. the republicans went on a retreat and they will start talking about this pretty soon, i'm confident. you're basically saying carve out -- you were talking about, for instance, blue collar workers. you have a carve-out for blue collar workers for raising the retirement age or some of these other areas where we are talking about changing benefits, you think that may be the key to moving forward with real entitlement reform? >> what we need is structural holistic reform in the health care system. >> we had to talk about health care reform for two years on this show. i thought i was going to kill myself! so we talk about it two years and all washington talks about for two years and three weeks after it passes people start coming on this show and saying you know we have to reform

health care. what was that interest some. >> it's in the process. you will not change the way we pay for one-fifth of the entire u.s. economy overtight. a period of transition. >> we had a two-year debate. >> why people come back and say we have more to do. i think most people would tell you that was a pretty solid insurance reform but that it didn't go far to steve's point as it needs to in underlying delivery model reform. we have a long way to go there. a lot of things to do. >> they don't say a whole lot but they say it real pretty. >> they say it nice. >> and all wear dark blue shirts. by the way, one of these guys, he represents an area north of the city. >> north of the city. >> that's right. everywhere we live now or going on the weekend, we describe as north of the city and we don't have to reveal the state we live in in new england. >> thank you both very much. >> thank you, guys. great seeing you again. >> great to see you, joe. we miss you. >> we will get republicans to

join us. what do you think? >> we should do that actually. >> love to. >> no labels. no labels is holding all kinds of breakfast and dinners and stuff. >> we need moderates on both sides and unfortunately both have been getting wiped off the last few elections and we need to change that for compromise to truly happen. >> we will do it here. coming up, some of his critics have called him, quote, the most dangerous man from america from where we are sitting, it doesn't look that threatening. >> look at him! >> former white house regulatory czar cass sunstein joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." meet the 5-passenger ford c-mc-max one. c-max two.

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♪ all right. this is kind of a feel good story from over the weekend. this little boy right there that you see 7-year-old jack hoffman has got brain cancer. he was invited to participate in the nebraska cornhuskers spring football game. at the end of the day he takes the handoff from the quarterback taylor martinez and with the help of the team runs 69 yards for the score. the bench is cleared to congratulate jack along with

60,000 cheering fans. nice. >> can you imagine how happy that kid was? look at him. he knew exactly what to do, too, once they pushed him. >> fantastic. all right. big news on thursday's show. we will sit down for an exclusive interview with vice president joe biden and we will talk gun safety and what is next for the legislation on capitol hill. up next, how much government is too much? former white house regulatory czar cass sunstein answers that question in his new book and he joins us next. ♪ used to day dream in that small town another boy romantic that's me ♪ mine was earned in djibouti, africa, 2004.

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♪ all right. this should be interesting. uh-huh. 45 past of the hour. here with us is the former administrator of the white house

and cass sunstein, the author of the new book "simpler the future of government." is that possible, first of all? don't we need regulation? >> we need some regulation but regulation can be simpler than it now is. >> like, for example? >> well, there is a new program for travelers called the global entry program and millions of people are zooming through when they re-enter the country, it's a department of homeland security initiative. >> it's great. >> really? >> you might see tsa pre. that is part of the program making the system a little more friendly for passengers. >> that sounds good. are there areas, though, that you think perhaps regulation needs to be in place? >> we do. >> difficult and -- >> we do need regulation so the air should be safe to breathe and the water should be safe to drink and. >> food healthy to eat? >> right. but is there a difference between complicated and unwielding and incomprehensible regulation on one hand and

simple intelligible regulation on the other. we want regulation to be more like computers and tablets in that the ingredients are implicated but a child can use a lot of them. >> we have much more information to work on some of these issues as well, especially food. harold, go ahead. >> you talk about how it's amazing. a lot of americans surprised not a great deal of research applied in this area to determine what regulations, laws, rules are working well and which ones are not. in your capacity as head of this office, i know you had predecessors but what did you find no surprising and astonishing as you looked at this body of work that had not been attended to? >> the most surprising thing to me was that regulations before they are issued and regulations after they are finished need to benefit from the disbursed information that the american people actually have and any win -- any one of us knows that

going in but on the ground you see a regulation acting people in iowa or california or new york or ohio and they know stuff about how to make it work better and how it's not working well. to get information in before you finalize the regulation and to learn from people to fix s regulations when they are hurting people and little companies not making people healthier is a lot what i learned. >> you saw it in the jobs report last friday that leach partisan reasons and for more nonpartisan reasons say regulation is hurting businesses and small business and why companies are not hiring and affordable care act and burden on smaller companies and causing them not to hire. you did serve in the obama administration so we may not a completely impartial view but from cambridge do you think it has legitimate concerns about the regulatory burden? >> i do. the obama administration is very

alert to the fact that regulations can take a toll on the economy which is why the number of regulations issued in the first term of the obama administration was smaller. the number of regulations in the first term it of the bush administration. it's test aalertness to the fact we need to get the economy going. the highest cost year for which we have numbers in a decade is 2007 under president bush. >> you're saying the highest cost to business implementing these regulations? >> 2007 was the high water mark. bush didn't hit the high water mark of his predecessors but obama hasn't hit the high water mark of bush. true needs to be a lot done to scale back rules and when they aren't working and justified and help the economy grow. at the same time, a place for regulation. in a lot of areas businesses are to regulation making sure there is clarity and the kind of level playing field. >> building on steve's question.

fair or unfair question to ask but what regulation -- because i believe there are some industries i believe some industries broadbound and others more clarity around what is going to happen going forward. in your estimation what body of work you believe needs to be examined more closely that could have the grittest impaeatest ec growth. some of these regulations need to be changed. but what area, as this administration goes forward, what area should they be focused on? >> very important area for keeping people safe and keeping the water clean and air clean and also an area where the epa has done great work scaling back on unjustified burdens. what is very important in the environmental area to take away unnecessary costs and doing that as the epa has done and taking away burdens on local gas stations and taking away burdens

on farmers. at the same time they're moving forward on things that make people healthier. that's an area where we need to continue to ramp up our rethinking of simplication. >> you can read an excerpt on our blog. thank you. very good to have you on board this morning. coming up on "morning" joe kirsten gillibrand. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. we've worked hard to keep it. today, the beaches and gulf are open for everyone to enjoy. we've shared what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. bp's also committed to america. we support nearly two-hundred-fifty thousand jobs and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come.

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we have breaking news to report. margaret thatcher, the longest serving prime minister of the uk and the only woman to serve in the post has died. she was 87 years old. so, margaret thatcher has passed away. that news just breaking moments ago. >> news just breaking. margaret thatcher did not change history, margaret thatcher bent history in every way. she was a trailblazer for women, of course, but, also, she took over a dead party in 1975. the conservatives were really about as weak as could be. over the next four years, this shopkeeper's daughter, who was excluded not only from the men's

club, but also excluded from the elite circles in great britain. she led a revolution. it could only be called a revolution and in four years authorities took control of ten downing street. she led for over a decade and she saved great britain's economy. it is strange when you go to great britain, you still don't see that this great woman, you don't see the recognition. but steve ratner, you actually worked for "the new york times" in the early '80s and some of her more tumultous years and without her leader great britain would be france today economically. >> at best. when you say she took over a dead party, she took over a dead country in a lot of ways.

britain was still suffering even then from the after effects of world war ii. a poor country, in the grip of organized labor and strikes all the done. a big coal mining country. the trade unions would go on strike and she just came in and was, in fact, what is now called the iron lady, she really did have this incredible force of personality. i traveled with her a little bit around the country, but just that force of personality. that certainty that she had was really extraordinary. and she did turn britain into a modern country, no question about it. >> it seems strange. you said she turned great britain into a modern country. the fact is from 1945 to 1979. from prime ministership right after the war when churchill was booted out until thatcher took over in '79, the economy was in such a state of decline. they centralized power and they

nationalized factories. they nationalized so much of great britain and it was really economically withering on the vine and then margt thatcher came in. how did she do it, steve? >> it was almost a socialist country in that point, the point you make. so much of the economy was controlled by the government and she just came in and started privatizing. now, one of the advantages you have in great britain, as you know, the parliamentary system. everything we talked about on the show for all the years of c congressional grid lock doesn't exist. her timing was also great. the country had realized that they needed to make this change. she had the support in parliament and she was able to put through these things, these reforms and get them done. it is a different, very different political system and it works. >> let's go to john meacham on the phone right now. john, we could talk about how

she bent history and what she did to revive this economically country. we can talk about her three consecutive terms as prime minister in britain, but the fact is, we don't have to talk in the past tense. thatcherism and still reigns in great britain because tony blair realized when he became prime minister that the only way to move forward was by adopting most of margaret thatcher's economic policies. >> absolutely. she created the conversation in which great britain continues to live in much the same way her great friend ronald reagan did for the united states. given to few people to change both the history of your country and the history of the world, but thatcher did that.

she and reagan with their cold war were incredibly important in changing, at least the tenor and, in many ways, the substance, as well, of the conversation about what the west was going to do about communism. before reagan and thatcher, talking about co-existence. during and after reagan and thatcher, people talked about the end of the soviet union. thought it was wonderfully poetic, but reagan went to london and talked about -- >> you know, it's interesting, mika, that reagan's detractors in the '80s called him a war mongr now, today, as they look back, realizing how terribly

wrong they were. we'll try to give credit for gorbachev for ending the cold war. that is a laughable proposition. he was forced into the corner and forced into the corner by ronald reagan, margaret thatcher, by pope john paul ii and by a few other tough, conservative leaders that made sure that the soviet union would rest on the ash heap of history. margaret thatcher was part of that coalition standing shoulder to shoulder with ronald reagan and pope john paul ii. and they took down the soviet union. >> it's amazing when you think about that. we're talking about hillary clinton potentially leading this country some day. but this woman defied all odds in so many ways. we're just past the top of the hour. breaking news to report. nbc confirming that former british prime minister margaret thatcher has died at the age of 87. she was the first woman prime minister of the uk and the

longest serving in the job. the cause of death, a stroke. she was born in 1925, the daughter of a grocer. she grew up to become a chemist and then, ultimately, the prime minister of the uk and, of course, nicknamed known around the world as the iron lady. >> she became a conservative member of parliament in 1959 and remained its member of parliament until '92. her first post junior from '64 to '70 when labor were in power and served in a number of positions. heath became the prime minister in '70. but it was four years later when thatcher decided she was going to take over. if you have time today, some time today, youtube margaret

thatcher's speech in 1975 when she took over the conservative party. this young, tough, energetic woman that, again, stepped into a socialist country. you know, we throw the term socialist around here so much in american debates and we really demean the meaning of the term sociali socialist. but great britain in 1975 was as close as great britain would ever get to becoming a socialist country. look at the speech in '75 and you realize when nobody believes in that conservative orthodox in 1975, you realize just looking at her speak, that convention, that's about to change because she said it with such force and with such eloquence and margaret thatcher believed and she proved it. there is no other way than my way. now, that caused a revolution in great britain and, also, that caused some detractors to rise

near the end. there was, there was a use by date for margaret thatcher as far as politics go. even at the end, a lot of her cabinet members have had enough of the lady who once famously said when she had a dinner with the cabinet. >> it's a great story. >> a wonderful story where she ordered steak. and then the waiter said, what about the vegetables? and he said what about the vegetables? >> it's not actually quite the story. the story is she said i'll have steak and the waiter said what about the vegetables? she said they'll have steak, too. another great line of hers, i wish i was as certain of anything as she is of everything. let me make two points. one thing she really shared with reagan was this idea that there were just a few basic principles

in life and if you stuck to those principles everything would work out. even the war where there was a lot of criticism of her why are we fighting this war 8,000 miles away, she is so sure of herself and it was a great strength. the other point i would make, joe, yes, britain was on the end of socialism and she brought it back. she didn't bring it back to where reagan was. britain is what you would call new democratic. she didn't try to dismantle the national health service. she realized there was only so far you can go and brought it way back out from the center. >> joining us now on the phone washington anchor for bbc world news america. the news of margaret thatcher's death crossing about ten minutes ago. your thoughts and first word of this. >> she is one of those rare british leaders who are as

popular, if not more popular in america than she was at home. you think of churchill and tony blair and, of course, you put out there, as well, margaret thatcher. it's when you speak to americans both on the left and right how much respect and admiration they have for margaret thatcher. when i was at university in the 1980s in britain, she was totally the dominating force of our political life. worth saying she was also an incredibly divisive political figure in british politics. she -- you're absolutely right. she took on the unions and she changed economic life and changed british political life and changed british class life and she was tough as nails in her decision to do that. in retrospect, most of those decisions she made especially standing with reagan when it came up to standing against the soviet union earned her admiration in history.

she was also a very divisive political figure. that was a country that any of you have seen the movie reminded of what a divided country britain was during margt thatcher's period as prime minister. >> one of the last battles she fought was going against the eu and it cost her at the time. but she's looking wiser by the day. and in 2013. >> she was, you know, part of that conservative field in britain that is still very euro skeptical. you look at boris johnson today who has taken up the mantle of margaret thatcher's euro conservatism. i think that, you know, listen, she had been in power, i'm trying to think off the top of my head. she has been in power for several terms and i think that by the end she was exhausted, the party was exhausted and it

wasn't just the eu position that was part of her downfall, it was part of her style. i think by the end, even within her own ranks there was enough divisiveness and prepared to turn against her. >> katy, so, let's talk about what her legacy is today, which is in great britain which is far different than what will be even ten years from now. ronald reagan's changed after he passed away and explain because i pick up the same thing as you. i talked to british citizens who are divided, at best, with margaret thatcher while, as you say, she receives almost universal accolades in the united states. i wonder if it has to do with the fact that david stockman's book, the triumph of politics, famously showed the sign where they came in asking ronald reagan to make more cuts when

americans were already getting tired of the cuts he was making and reagan said, i'm the guy that wears the white hat. okay. i wear the white hat. that is something you would never hear out of margaret thatcher's mouth. and i'm just wondering if it was their two styles. thatcher almost seemed to relish the fight, whereas, reagan didn't. is that why there is still scar tissue among the population in great britain? >> i think that might be part of it, joe, i think you're right. in retrospect. if people look back, did the print unions have to be broken? did the miner's strike have to be broken? most brits would say, yes. as you suggested, we moved very far to the left and she brought it back to the center and i think it was probably the way she did it. the people found so difficult whether it was to do with northern ireland or to do with the miners and that was a really, really bitter fight.

the fight against the miners strike. when i was at oxford university, everybody was involved. even if you were on the right of the political spectrum, you were raising money for the miners' families. it was the sense that the country had been split. the country was involved almost in a kind of civil war-type atmosphere and she was the figure head -- and she did, you're right. she was very tough and she didn't. if you were gauche to have that revolution in politics, you have to be tough. >> you had to be tough. it's so fascinating what you're saying about the miners strike, you talk to even liberals today from great britain and they'll say, yeah, the unions. the unions had to be broken. >> she was right. >> yeah. >> therefore, maybe, it was partly the style in which it was done. another issue that is a big

legacy. here she was, the daughter of a grocer who broke through the british class system to become prime minister. i think that was huge. that we became, you know, a left class society because of margaret thatcher. you had a new wave of people who were starting to make money and i think that is a very big deal. if you look at our cabinet today, we have etonian prime minister, etonian mayor of london. it's very different of how it was under margaret thatcher. >> let's talk about how she was a revolutionary? she was idelogically. brought bad a dead conservative party. she changed great britain. she bent history and she was revolutionary socially breaking down class structures as a grocer's doctor. tina brown, i remember tina

telling the story of how in great britain you just didn't think about it. the men and the women came together and they had dinner and then the men said we're now going to retire to our room. the women would stay there and tina brown said she remembered sitting there one time and margaret thatcher and all the women sat down and the men said we'll retire. all the women sat down and margaret thatcher without thinking twice, she went into the men's room and she sat down and it was -- tina said it was shocking and not one man dare question her. >> absolutely not. >> they were cereified of her. >> i want to talk to katy about that in just a moment, but just to reset here. 12 past the hour. nbc news confirming the death of margaret thatcher. british prime minister david cameron this morning says this, "britain has lost a great leader. a great prime minister of great britain." and she, she really was in so

many ways just, she paved the way for women around the world without even thinking that way. thinking i'm doing this for that reason. just by being such an incredible leader. >> so many things have been said. i would ask steve from his experience there in the '80s, how was she able to garner those coalitions? you think about the massive change and i'll take your point for what it was worth. she brought the country back to the middle, as opposed to taking it to the far right because of the generosity of that system. how did she organize and cement those kind of coalitions to maintain 12 years of power. as joe has said, revolutionary change. >> i think it was simply by steamroller. she had the support of her party and she basically just said, this is the way we're going.

>> it's a lot -- there was a lot of resistance at the beginning. katy talked about the coal minors ' strikes. the whole country felt like it didn't have its confidence and optimism and she gave them that and she was like a churchill and ronald reagan and inspirational leader. she could really lead people by the sheer force of her personality. >> katy, let me ask you about that. the stories we're hearing about having to be a divisive figure and being involved in bitter fights over the years and hearing the stories you tell, joe, about just walking into the room with the men and sitting right down. we've always talked here on the show about leadership qualities in women and leaning in and knowing your value and how to get there and, yet, she really found a way to, when in this

country or in most countries divisiveness and aggressiveness is something that women struggle with and struggle being accepted doing. she found a way to defy all that. >> yeah, when she said the la lady's not returning, she meant it. she will stick to exactly what she wanted to do. she could also be very charming. she could turp on her feminine charm, as well. wasn't that, i think the persepgpe perception of margaret thatcher, she was definitely, she flattered him, charmed him and tough with him when she needed to be. but she was very much a female leader, as well. i often thought of this issue of why we had a women leader before america's had one. i think part of it is the parliamently system. steve was suggesting that because she rose up through the

party ranks. she wasn't elected as margaret thatcher prime minister and that makes a very big difference in the women's ability to take the top position in the country. you don't have to raise huge sums of money. you don't have to run the campaign all by yourself. if you look at the countries around the world where there have been a women leader, it is often because it's been through a parliamentary system where you're nominated and elected as part of the party and that party has been put into office. >> margaret thatcher, she became prime minister, i don't know if the country knew what was going to hit it. they elected the conservative party, as you suggested, after the 1970s when we had strikes. i remember growing up and endless power cuts in britain in the 1970s. it really did feel like a kind of, the legacy of the second world war and she was falling apart. along came thatcher and

supposedly revolutionized the country and i don't think, i don't think brits knew when they elected her they knew what they were getting. >> you would hear about power outages and these cuts and they would have to tell people, turn your lights off. it was a country in decline. i remember still having that attitude when i started in college in the early 1980s. great britain, once a great empire in decline. my gosh, five years later, that changed radically. let me ask you about the take of british historians, katy. on thatcher and where she stands among 20th century prime minister. >> yeah. >> i would guess churchill and thatcher stand out as the two great prime ministers, maybe george because of world war one. does she have many other peers

other than that select group? >> in terms of her impact and her stature she is up there with churchill as one of the figures you will remember that everybody will remember. i think she was more divisive than churchill was. we were not a country at war. it was a very different period. but she, i think it is worth remembering and it is something that is forgotten here in america when i think about margaret thatcher is how the memories of her in britain are much more mixed than they are here in america. >> i suspect that, too, will change over time. >> i think the people will remember the divisiveness in britain at the time and whether to do with her style or politics

and what she needed to do. and her character. i mean, i don't think she's universally beloved in britain the way winston churchill is still loved. >> well, universally loved is not what many people would say winston churchill was. >> this is a man who won a world war. two. he was away at the conference trying to carve up -- >> and she was in paris. >> and winston churchhill after leading great britain through world war ii and after being the man of the century for what he did in one year, 1940 and parts of 1941, saved not only great britain. a few years after that when he won the war, the brits voted him out of office. what is the famous, what is the

famous quote? clementine said sometimes there are blessings in disguise and churchill said, well, that may be the case, but in this case, the blessing is very well disguised. so, history has a way of rounding off the rough edges. they have with reagan, they did with churchill and i suspect they did with thatcher because, even as katy said, a lot of people said the miners' strike was horrible. i i've talked to liberals and conservatives and near socialests in great britain and they said what steve said. which is in the 1970s those unions needed to be broken for this country to start working again right now. >> vindicated on her views in europe. they're having in britain another debate her decision not to go into the euro was a

critically -- >> we're going to bring more voices in to cover the story. the breaking news that nbc news has confirmed. the former british prime minister margaret thatcher. andrea mitchell, we'll start with you on the passing of the iron lady. >> well, i can tell you, i covered eight years of ronald reagan and as large as her influence was on economic policy, social policy as katy was describing, too. her first middle class grocer's daughter to become prime minister. but the influence on ronald reagan was irmeasurable. when she became president, she preceded him so she was the longest lasting person. she had become prime minister before he was president. she looked to him forgoidance and she had a huge influence on him on economic policy and also

on political policy regarding the cold war. not just she who said to george herbert walker bush, don't go wobbly on us that august before he sended up with the first golf war. but it was a fourth ronald reagan that she supported on what was known as "star wars" but became streakic defense and missile defense and during all those years with the mif department, you cannot imagine what it was like to go to germany and nato meetings with the green party protesting in the streets. there was extraordinary military and defense controversy over reagan's policies regarding what he called the evil empire. and she supported him every bit of the way. i remember interviewing her many times live in the mornings for "today" show over at the embassy and covering all those summits. whenever we came to washington,

we would review those interviews and she was so tough and so strong. got to know her well. during those years if you tried to interview her and you said anything that was challenging, she just went after you. >> that's what i'm talking about. >> i'm telling you, when people say who were the toughest people you ever interviewed? margaret thatcher first and fidel castro second. she was that tough. fierce legacy to reagan and she wasn't well enough to the time of her funeral and she taped a video and came to all the funerals. a male/female part of it. she was flirtatious with him and they loved each other. it was quite a deep bond. >> you know, it's very interesting what andrea said, mika, about there being a flurtitious relationship there. katy aleluded to this earlier.

she seemed so tough on tv. but, again, she was a woman and she could be very flirtatious and she had, she knew how to use that between hammering a guy and she also knew how to be sweet and, at times, appeared to be differential. she was just shrewd. with everything she had. >> but, again, to be that tough. for andrea mitchell to say that was one of her toughest inert views, that's saying a lot. chris matthews, again, that sort of balance of charming and sweet and ultimately being known around the world for iron lady for some real key lady. where do you think that came from? >> everybody in public life have ten personaliurse naersonalitie in play. we know that from politics and

maybe media, too. i met one of her personalities is nice lady. she came to give a speech to the congress and, as always, i was in the green room. i was the sweeker then. she was really nice. she and her husband. i expected to meet the iron lady and she was the nicest person. that was one of perinalities when she wasn't being threatened. when we went into grenada, she wasn't happy with reagan. in each case they filed their instincts. i think both had a very strong sense of patriotism in their own country and how important these bite-size wars were to the reestablishment of sort of a veet nv venomaround our countries. but, as i said, she was very nice when i met her. >> talk about the type of leadership, chris, that it took

for her. that it took for reagan with margaret thatcher, 1979. assuming the prime ministership and ronald reagan in 1980. talk about how it's fascinating that these two leaders elected one year apart are going to be seen in their countries as two of the most significant leaders historically. the 20th century. >> i think it's clear in her case. just like our presidency, you have a hit every once in a while. and then a lot of misses. i think she stands up as one of the greatest prime ministers. maybe one of the best prime ministers since churchill. everything you said about churchill was right. he was the "time" magazine man for the first half of the century. but i think they both reestablished the potential of middle class people to rule

their countries. i mean, neither she nor reagan were tough. neither one had economics, but they both had this character almost collusion with their countries. they knew their countries really well and they knew their strivings to get back on their feet, again. after weak leadership and decisi decision. . they both grasp that. the conservative party never had the gutsy sense of, you have to be tough. you can't always be accommodating and diplomatic. i think she knew that. she saw her spot, as reagan did, and went to jump. the great politician like michael jordan in basketball. you play your part, you play your position and then you go for it when you see your opportunity. you are the pro and then the excellent pro when you see the opportunity. i think reagan did things like with the way he handled his presidency and with normally and

sort of rebuilding that confidence we had after normdy and bringing that back in 1984. certainly with grenada in '83. these ways of reestablishing and rebuilding confidence in your own country. i think they both understood it. >> chris, good morning. you think about the relationship and john meacham was on earlier. probably the foremost expert between franklin roosevelt and winston churchill and you think of the relationship, obviously, in between and joe and others have spoken between thatcher and reagan. you found leaders, you have ranked thatcher as probably the most foremost prime minister since churchill. speak about her in terms of the relationship that blare and bush had before. the war in iraq. the relationship between ushering in a new kind of

leadership. how do you compare those relationships as you think about the model that thatcher laid out and the model that her and reagan had and the impact they had on public policymaking since their departure from office and, obviously, now, both having passpass ed on. >> i think thatcher was a hard nosed conservative and blare was smart to be a laborite. they both knew the sweet spots for their time. certainly, i always thought if i was in britain i would be on the conservative side of the labor party. i think blair. he looked too -- it wasn't like churchill and roosevelt. blair following w didn't make the same kind of sense. church always looked like a leader because you always knew his interests were in britain, even in getting us into the war, whatever steps he could do to

intimidated anything he could to get to all the statements we were making then. churchill was maybe leading from behind, but definitely leaning for britain. never clear with blair. he looked like he was being a running dog to w, who is was not a great president and not a great mind. so, i think there is a big difference there. but i do think that both blair and clinton understood that their parties were not going to win on the hard left with getting rid of nuclear power or trying to take over the heavy industries, again. the own lnly way labor would co back, but did want sympathy for people. i think there are different times and the great leader knows their times. >> definitely. >> just as bill clinton declared

reag reaganesque terms that era of big government is over. and, really did at the end of the day do more to make it a performina permanent reality. in 1992 margaret thatcher left. the end of a very long era and how ironic that thatcher left soon after the soviet union collapsed on christmas day 19191. moving towards a public diagnosis of having alzheimer's. the two cold warriors that stole and by the time they left office, they could look back at the collapse of the evil empire, as ronald reagan called the soviet union. and see just how much they had

accomplished together. >> indeed, they could. don't forget that it was maggie thatcher who said first after looking, meeting gorbachev, i could do business with him. she even signals not only to ronald reagan, but nancy reagan, that they should think about doing business with this new soviet leader. so, you had a real transition that she was the first envision. i'm thinking that was all the moments, i remember after she left, so bitter over john major who she really fell aslep and i remember they came to the embassy here for a small dinner and major had just gotten himself into a huge model over currency devaluation and the pound was in trouble and all kinds of difficulties economically in the uk and very privately dennis, who was such a

cheerleader. very loud cheerleader for his wife, always. which, of course, answers to the new prime minister major. but here is a former prime minister and he starts saying, well, i got into a taxi or however he phrased it in london and the driver said, you were going to be back at number ten soon. you were going to be back at number ten soon. he was so expressive about how angry she was and, of course, not only politically incorrect but diplomatically incorrect for him to be verballyizing this in front of all the american guests. but it was very clear that she was very angry at the way she had been pretty much ousted. also on the tenth anniversary of the first gulf war i was in kuwait covering that and flew back via london and in that

cabin, major was on one side and thatcher on the other. they never exchanged a word. so, there was a lot of bitt bitterness over the way she left office. at that point, she was very much down. whenever she came to america she would just fly out to california and go to those reagan burtdy parties and she was a hero to all the reagan. >> joining us now amanda foreman. historian and also author of "newsweek" 2011 cover story of margaret thatcher. when the movie "iron lady" starrista, a lot of people weren't sure it was fair in its depiction but got the conversation of margaret thatcher reunited, again. >> that film, despite it being made by a left-swing filmmaker,

at least made the point that she was a trailblazer. you know, when she ran to become prime minister, when she ran to become the leader of the party, nobody thought that she was going to win. and, in fact, that's why so many people for her to come leader because they thought it was a wasted vote and she surprised them by getting the most votes. >> what she did moving forward, obviously. she wasn't, wasn't happy just occupying 10 downing street. she wasn't just happy pushing conservative agenda. she wanted to shape and change history. and i suspect some of those doubters even within her own party had to be shocked years in on what a huge difference she was making. >> oh, yes. it's hard to remember now but when she took over, there were

electric strikes, gas strikes, coal strikes. the country was barely functioning. it took six months to get a telephone line. the telephone number for the british gas show room was unlisted. even if you wanted to get a new gas cooker, you wouldn't get a hold of them. her own party. >> that is unbelievable. steve ratner, this goes to the point that you were making before. that the great change that she made. again, katy was talking about it before. but you remember hearing about, they would have power outages and just parts of england would be told, no power tonight or this week. and phone line, takes six months to get a phone line. strikes paralyzing the entire country. what a change this one person made.

>> i was there for that and experienced a fair amount of that. i think britain was ready for this kind of change and ready for someone to come in and basically set them right. one other point that is important to remember is that she certainly changed the way the state functioned, the way the government functioned and privatization making government more responsive and embolden private industry to start to take on more responsibility for actually running their companies and being cutting edge and becoming more competitive. she set a tone for a whole of the economy, even the parts of which she didn't control directly to function better. >> let's take a look now back over time. we have a sense of her legacy and her life through the eyes of nbc martin fletcher. >> reporter: she was known as the iron lady that leaves a legacy beyond dispute. margaret thatcher one of the most influential politicians of the 20th century. the daughter of a dressmaker she

was told to never follow the crowd. she married and gave birth to twins. elected at 34, her no nonsense style quickly led her up the ladder of britain's conservative party. by age 50 she was leader. >> the iron lady of the western world. >> reporter: just four years later the country's first woman prime minister. an upslip hair do became legendary. >> you turn, if you want to. that lady's not for turning. >> reporter: consensus and compromise, they said, where no in her vocabulary. defied military experts and won a war with argentina. took on britain's powerful labor unions. passing laws restricting the rights.

she ignored ira hunger strikes. in 1984, when ira bomb killed four people in the hotel with thatcher and her party was meeting, she was delivering her speech just hours later. >> attempt to destroy democracy by terrorism will fail. >> reporter: thatcher transformed britain's economy selling off one state-owned industries to the private sector. her policy went on to be imitated. among her admirers, ronald reagan. they formed a potent pa partnership. by 1990, after three terms in office, it was a felly conservative party members who forced her out of office, unhappy with a number of her policies. she had lost power, but not influence.

a workaholic kept campaigning for her party. after a series of small strokes, doctors advised thatcher to retire from public life, but she never really did. in 2004, she honored a promise to ronald reagan and delivered a eulogy at his funeral. >> we have lost a great american and a great friend and i have lost a dear friend. >> reporter: the "iron lady"ed show dementia. british politics struggling with the passage of time. determined, dynamic and deeply controversial, thatcher leaves an indelible mark on the world's political landscape. all right, we're going to bring in richard wolffe in just a second but first i just heard the most interesting story from steve ratner. >> little asterisk.

when i lived in britain, you still have the remnants of the class system, we talked about before. you could literally tell by someone's accent what class they were from. she has a very posh accent, an upper class accent. notwi notwithstanding her desire. she wanted to sound like one of them. >> another person who has done that, richard wolffe. >> watching her in that piece there, you are reminded, in carter's years the comment and how the west was viewed as be g being. with her relentlessness in the part of great britain. a win for the west, not just for great britain. as i watched it, i was reminded of it. >> on the other side of it, you can't underestimate the

important iimportance of meeting gorbachev. ronald reagan would not have listened to any, you know, any such suggestion from schmidt or a leader from france. but if margaret thatcher is telling him, we can work with him. there's no doubt. he had a great impact and ronnen . we have richard wolffe. richard, your thoughts. i guess you made up your accent, too. >> i destroyed many things in my time, but the class system isn't one of them. >> give us your thoughts just as we are now not even an hour into this news on the passing of margaret thatcher on her legacy. >> well, margaret thatcher, no question that she was colossus

of politics. her legacy is felt in britain in many ways. across the welfare system and also within the political parties. one of the things that david cameron has had to do as prime minister is reengineer his party so that it doesn't look like what they call the nasty party. i mean they have focus grouping and polling are the years where tony blair was thrashing them in campaign after campaign and people diddant like the conservatives because they were still thatcher's party. as much as they admired her skills and her leadership qualities and the winning elections. remember, she did not lose a general election. as much as blair and cameron modeled themselves off that, they have to say we're specifically not like our british politics shaped by that. this is the small thing, but in a vaer larery large picture. house of cards.

was based on the coup that pushed margaret thatcher out of power. remember, she was pushed out of power by her own party, not by voters hoping that by all accounts she never recovered from the injustice, as she thought of it. >> explain for us, by the way, we have chris matthew s still with us. richard, you know, it's so fascinating seeing the divide and you and i are both liverpool football fans. you have, obviously, much longer than i have. but i changed my avatar, my litting pili little picture on my twitter feed probably about six months back about margaret thatcher. there was such anne outpouring of contempt across great britain and the wurld. how could you do it? you are a traditor to the team,a

traitor to the class. there are pockets in the northern part of great britain that do, still, despise what she did. especially liverpool. explain that. >> so margaret thatcher found enemies abroad and they were very, very successful in taking them down in some ways because, you know, we all talk about the falulkins war and she got rid of a dictatorship in argentina. but she also found her enemies at home. she picked really aggressive battles with people and groups. you know, i heard martin fletcher's report, she took on the labor unions who were watching powerful britain at that time and i say that as a progressive. the labor unions had brought britain to its knees and trash wasn't being picked up in the streets. literally, dead bodies were

going unburied and she helped bring an end to that. on the other hand, she carried on taking flights to parts of the country. where she introduced the poll pacts and scotland and something the scottish people have never forgive on the conservatives for to this day. liverpool, struggling with the end of the industrial era, the end of the big industry ports and manufacturing. she took a very cold and aggressive approach to restructuring the entire economy and a place like liverpool. she picked extreme political fights. she took on the minors, which was a bad area of northern england. it makes her a devisive character to this day. >> i still marvel, richard and

joe, at a woman breaking through and doing this in her generation. and talking about finding her enemies at home and taking them on. it does have a different framework to it. the backdrop. that is in the uk politics is much more controversial. and i just wonder if that landscape was a better layout for a woman to break through. a tough lady to break through. >> i think so. what is remarkable she took control 38 years ago. she was tough and she was aggressive and you had to be in great britain then and you have to be in great britain now with the tab loit cu-- would respondl

to hillary clinton being that aggressive. i mean, hillary clinton basically has been trained not to raise her voice above a certain decibel level because focus groups show that it turns off men. who are working class. >> yeah, i think that's an interesting thing. if you look at the great women leaders of the world and thatcher. it's interesting. they all sort of followed the old john wane model of being the boss. being the leader. follow me, guys, i'm the boss. i know where we're going to go, we're going to go. giving direction and instruction, i would like to hear what the other minister has to say. i know women as a group. my wife has taught me this, much more culiegeal whether putting on a program or doing anything, always trying to learn from each other and sharing. that's sort of role model. so interesting america jumped.

i think she can be both, obviously. i guess you're right, joe. i want to say something about moviemaking and how people have to be careful about these biopicks. for some reason the left-wing filmmakers their idea of being balanced. i use that in quotes. is to be sympathetic and take a leader like nixon and they'll be sympathetic to him. worst thing you can do to nixon is being sympathetic to him. that's really putting that guy down. they always play sympathy. it's their way of, i guess, telling themselves they're being balanced and fair. the best way to portray these leaders is tough. take them on. show how tough they were. take sides. that's a great filmmaker and for some reason the left wing filmmakers do not give justice to these guys and realize they're great leaders, even if they totally disagree with them

on social policy. i always wonder about young people going to see a movie like "nixon" getting it all wrong or see thatcher. why not portray her the way we did. she is an extraordinary leader. the filmmakers won't do that because they still want to win their political argument. >> yeah. >> that's why i don't trust b biopics opportunity. >> craig shirley a reagan biography, obviously, studied a lot about margaret thatcher and he is on the phone with us, as well. we have been talking about a woman who bent history. bobby kennedy say few have the power to actually bend history. she did as a conservative. she did as a woman doing what she did.

in that man centric country 38 years ago. she did as a british leader savi saving great britain from further decline. as you know all too well she bent history as a cold warrior. talk about how margaret thatcher along with pope john paul ii were shoulder to shoulder with ronald reagan in bringing down the soviet union. you have to go back to 1979, we were losing the cold war. southeast asia following to communism. the soviets in nicaragua, afghanistan, els salvador. italy had come into voting a party of communist government. the fortuitous rise of pope john paul ii and reagan and thatcher that nobody saw in 1979. we thought the soviet union was

a permanent fixture. >> but they did change. talk about her relationship with ronald reagan and in 1995 famously saying that gorbachev, i could work with him. how hard was that ready for learn. >> gorbachev was still a communist and everybody understood that. she once said that reagan was second most important man in her life. he once said that she was the strongest man in great britain. that gives you an idea of the mutual respect between the two. >> the pictures of her, especially given their relationship. andrea mitchell, are you still with us? give us a sense of their relationship. the closeness and fondness they had for each other as they tried to work together at times and not at times.

>> andrea? >> sorry. the relationship was amazingly close and very personal between reagan and thatcher. and it was a dynamic where she helped teach him about the g7 and how to be a leader within the g7 long before the russians were invited in and he looked at her for guidance on almost everything, both economic and national security. and more i think about how controversial his strategic defense initiative was. remember, it was star wars, a term he hated. it was thought to be fictitious and impossible. think about the missile defense batteries that are now being deployed on our destroyers and against north korea and what has been used by the israelis in irp do dome. all of that was imagined during

the and margaret thatcher in interview after interview defended his alliance on this. of course, as we later learned, the soviets, then soviets were so frightened by it that it increased their own military spending and enoorms role to play in what we think of as the end of the soviet union. so, there was, there was just the economic policies, the national security policy and just the personal friendship where he knew as someone who was criticized around the world as a cowboy, a movie actor, not up to being a foreign leader that when he went to the summit, she would have his back. >> certainly. thank you so much, andrea mitchell. we greatly appreciate it. we will be watching your show at 1:00 today. chris matthews, we thank you so much, as well, for your great insights as a man who worked with the speaker of the house during the significant time. i think steve ratner really has,

along with our friends that have been on the show this morning, that actually lived in great britain. >> lived it lived through the history. >> it's hard to understand if you go to london today and you look at this extraordinary stree has has centers of the city, that has become an economic center of the world. before this one woman became prime minister, great britain was reduced to three-day workweeks, there was garbage in the street that wasn't getting picked up. amanda said there were dead bodies that weren't being buried. there were widespread power outages throughout the 1970s. entire regions would have to go dark for a day or two because they just didn't have the power. the industries were nationalized. it took six months to get a telephone. this was a country that was in a

state of economic collapse. and that economic decline had started with churchill's defeat in 1945. and it continued through margt thatcher's rise to being prime minister in 1979. perhaps there is a greater turn around of one country's economic fate in such a short amount of time. but if there is, i can't think of a parallel over the past century. >> that wraps up "morning joe's" coverage of the passing of margaret thatcher. chuck todd picks things up straight ahead. >> where there is discourse, may we bring harmony. where there is era, may we bring truth. where there is doubt, may we bring faith. and where there is despair, may we bring hope. here's your business travel

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